Softer spaces

[odditycollector]

Today I read China Miéville's The City and The City, and it was really interesting, but now I am wondering about something.

It's a pretty common trope to drop a fictional country into a world which is *otherwise* meant to be identical to our own, and I can think offhand of fictional Eastern European or African countries, or Asian or Central American ones... but no North American ones, and *maybe* a couple meant to be Western European (Princess Bride, I think?). Yeah, there's Gilead and Oceania and such, but the point of them is that they *don't* exist in a world identical to ours.

It might be that there are actually many examples of fictional WE/NA countries, I am just not well read enough (very possible). Or I tend to consume Western media, which may have a hard time imagining changes to familiar geography/understand the local countries well enough it does not *need* to invent imaginary countries, which are easy permission to get things wrong. Perhaps Chinese literature has many such countries, far away fantasy islands filled with people drawn from some rough hybrid of English and Spanish stereotypes, whereas the borders of Burma and Thailand are understood to be far too definite to make room for imaginary nations.

I hope so. Otherwise it implies something... unsurprising... about the pieces we consider "essential" for a world to be recognizably "this" one.

Of course, when it comes to North America (Northern America? I'm not including Central America, which seems to have different rules), we have very few countries to sneak new ones between. It would be difficult to be vague about location, as is often the case with fictional countries. (And the history must change, but that is true with any imaginary map, the trope requires us to gloss over this fact.) Still... if anyone knows of any examples, I'd be very curious to see a recognizably North American country which is not the USA and not Canada and not Mexico either.

Comments

[liviapenn]

Yeah, I think location is the problem with imaginary countries in North America. It's easier for a reader to suspend disbelief with a continent like Europe that already "canonically" has dozens of countries ranging from giant to super tiny and/or obscure, like Monaco or San Marino.

I think the equivalent in books or movies with a North American setting would be fictional states or provinces (like Winnemac), or fictional major cities. Henry James has a character in The Golden Bowl who comes from an American city that is apparently just literally named "American City." ^_^

[odditycollector]

I hadn't thought of fictional states/provinces! But yeah, it'd be a lot easier for one those to get lost in the shuffle, and they do tend to have enough of their own cultures you could build your own.

Undecided if fictional cities feel the same to me, but hmm. Something like Metropolis is self-contained enough it could probably count.

[willow]

While I've observed the same as you - I did find myself thinking that historically Europe has had countries merging and separating. The countries that existed when I was a child, nae, even just 10-15 years ago, don't exist anymore. They've become something else.

I'm not sure I've noticed the same tendency to create new countries in Asia. But I do acknowledge that depending on when something was set in Asia I can imagine the creation/existence of other countries - because I can imagine a region declaring independence from whomever is dominant at the time; France, England or China.

North America has had the luxury/privilege of being relatively stable for a long period of time. So unless it is a total AU where the US is two or more countries, or absorbed Canada or something like that - I think it's a lot easier to create fictional cities. I know the concept is very easy for me to imagine because to me the US is HUGE (ginormous actually) and if you can set up a point along a major river (or lake), or think of squeezing a point somewhere on a coastline - why couldn't there be another major city.

Heck as it is there's often lots of East/West conversation; LA vs NYC with very little mention of Chicago, far less Kansas City which is a major metropolis that what, crosses/spreads between two states?

[odditycollector]

The countries that existed when I was a child, nae, even just 10-15 years ago, don't exist anymore. They've become something else.
That's true, and perhaps why I do find it a lot easier to imagine a fictional East European country squeezing in, compared to, like, something stretching between the Canada/US border.

I think it's a lot easier to create fictional cities.
*nodnod*
I guess cities just don't *feel* the same to me as whole 'nother countries, but perhaps the NA maps are just so different, they serve the same purpose. It'd be hard to imagine another Australian country either.

[nextian]

Have you read whatistigerbalm's entry about the book? There's a lot about squeezing countries in where they can't belong. I don't agree with all her points -- I think in some cases she ascribes mistakes to Miéville that are intentional plot points -- but mostly it's a very good critique of a book I (unfortunately) liked a lot.

[snowballjane.livejournal.com]

I can't think of fictional countries, but here are some fictional US states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_U.S._states). Does that mean states tend to fulfil the same function for NA-based story-telling, in setting up a vague general location and easy regional sterotype?

[odditycollector.livejournal.com]

Maybe! (Randomly, glancing at that list, I'm surprised there aren't artificial "vowel" states. Talk about easy stereotypes.)

A few other people have suggested that the fictional US cities, often from unspecified states, are the equivalent. I'm torn between thinking, "But they're so *American*", and, "Well, I suppose that's the point".

[milkshake-b.livejournal.com]

I think that North American, and particularly US, stuff is far more likely to go for fictional cities--Gotham, Metropolis, even Seacouver from Highlander--which I think makes a certain amount of sense, but I'm having a hard time articulating why.

[bats_eye.livejournal.com]

I think there's a decent amount of western europe fictional small countries to be fair. Countries like the Duchy of Grand Fenwic from 'the mouse that roared' that fit in about where luxembourg and liechtenstein are. Though, I'll admit most of the examples I can think of come from German and French fiction which are very fond of the trope.

There's even a fictional andorra from a swiss play, which is oddly completely distinct from the real andorra.

[odditycollector.livejournal.com]

:) I thought my sample size was probably too small. Thanks!

[murnshaw.livejournal.com]

I read Lolita recently and all of the towns in it are based on real-life locations but made up. The author talks about it in the afterword.

[ndgmtlcd.livejournal.com]

The last fictional country I saw sprouting up in North America was Underland, which shares at least one of its borders with Michigan and which is ruled by Baron Ünderbheit, one of the arch-enemies of Dr Venture in the "The Venture Bros." animated TV series on Adult Swim.

I also remember two sovereign countires set up in the "wilds" of the US West in the late 19th century, in a Jules Verne novel.

And then just looking in the "A" section of the Wikipedia article on fictional countries I see:

Applesauce Lorraine: a country, parody of Alsace-Lorraine, stated to be bordered by France and Baja California, from Rocky and Bullwinkle's epic "The Three Moosketeers"

I've skipped countries which are in a future (usually dystopic) North America because, like you say they are not supposed to exist in the present (like Aztlan and Gilead and Oceania which were set in the future when their texts were written)and because there are so many that most of them are not even mentioned in the Wikipedia list. I just looked for present day ones or past ones which are supposed to survive through the years.

There are probably more in the other letters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_countries

[odditycollector.livejournal.com]

The last fictional country I saw sprouting up in North America was Underland, which shares at least one of its borders with Michigan and which is ruled by Baron Ünderbheit, one of the arch-enemies of Dr Venture in the "The Venture Bros." animated TV series on Adult Swim.

That sounds hilarious! European style Barony in the middle of a continent with no such traditions. The other countries must roll their eyes a bunch.

Hmmm...

[count-fenring.livejournal.com]

I think part of the problem is that fictional countries slot better into a continent where small countries can and do exist alongside the major ones. I mean, part of North America's makeup is that, at least in modern times, it's split between only three countries, with concrete, long-established borders; it's a big part of the geopolitical makeup of the region. Whereas in Europe, Africa, and South America, smaller polities exist, and borders are somewhat more fluid somewhat more recently.