This would have been easier if I could draw.

[odditycollector]

I really should know better, but I clicked on a link to the DC message boards, topic of the new Frank Miller cover.

In summary... this is why I’m going to stay way the hell over here okay thanks. However, one exchange did catch my attention and would not let me shake it as it might have a sane person.

maelithil:
Depicting [women] as an ass, a pair of tits, some gorgeous thighs is doing them a disservice. Distilling them into nothing but their sexual attributes is objectifying. And that's exactly what this cover does.

Random Fanboy:
And notice that Superman's chest is OFTEN a whole panel unto itself. Not Superman fighting the bad guy. Not Superman standing full figure. Superman's chest. Just his chest. His huge, massive, S-draped, extraterrestrially muscular chest. Is Superman being objectified? Is he being used? Should I cry for Superman?

And. Just. What? This is the counterexample?

But! Maybe it’s not that his logic is just that scary. Maybe it's hard to understand what she’s talking about because it really, honestly is that there’s no comparable example featuring a male denizen of the DCU. I mean, even the occasional Nightwing crotch shot *tries* to have context.

Obviously, something had to be done. For The Good Of Fandom.

Luckily, much like Miller, I have no shame.

 
Totally Appropriate Covers (with bonus, never before seen script excerpts!)

 



Hal’s flying away from us through a generic starfield, nothing interesting to see except him. Have him wriggle around, giving us a good shot of his package. Add some details, something fancy for the fanboys to drool over, but don’t let it draw attention away from the point of the cover – that Kyle has nothing, NOTHING, on my boy Hal.

 



Be careful with this one – we don’t want Supes to come off as too powerful, too imposing. Maybe have him lean a bit, off balance, the better to show off his *well filled* briefs. He's fiddling with the waist line, such a cock *heh* tease. He knows he’s got what we want, and if we turn the cover, he’ll let us have it.

 



Well, we’ve done just about every variation on the theme by now, so let’s go back to the basics: Black on black, a full cover shot of Batman’s ass. Add in the utility belt for colour – give it that Sin City look. Show me thick, powerful legs under that latex or whatever the hell he wears. Clenched butt muscles. Make it obvious this is no BatGIRL we’re talking about.

Comments

[vejiicakes.livejournal.com]

My present to you, late as it is, you bastion of wonderfulness:

http://vejiita4eva.livejournal.com/110862.html

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

To be fair on the Batman cover, Joel Schmumacher *did* try to do his part with the third and fourth movies. Can we say "molded nipples" and "huge plastic codpieces" anyone? *snerk*

And yet, they weren't cinematic masterpieces! I wonder why ...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

The difference is, the majority of comics readers don't necessarily want to grab Superman's massive chest and start fucking it like they do Wonder Woman's scantily-covered ass or tit cleavage.

And yeah, welcome to Bluntsville, population: Me.

[(Anonymous)]

If just one cover like this made it out, I would never again have to deal with icky guys at the comics shop. But they would finally get it.

Then print these out, laquer 'em so they're gloss, put 'em on the cover of 32 blank pages, put 'em in a plastic comic baggie, and smuggle 'em in to the shelves of the comic shop in question.

[jij.livejournal.com]

Argh, there have been so many comments, but I had to add mine. I had seen the pictures at www.pandagon.net and laughed over them, but then I came here and the CAPTIONS, the CAPTIONS are so perfect! I just finished reading the script for ASBAR and like you I could. not. believe. that they would publish something that transparent, that revealing of what a sick, weird man Frank Miller is. My husband was reading with me and he was like, "Jeez, Miller thanks all his readers are men...and that we're all a bunch of moronic horndogs!"

Love the clenched butt muscles. Miller's Batman: clenched jaw, clenched buttocks.

[(Anonymous)]

Which is what I said in the first place. Intent and effect are different in each case. The Wonder Woman image is blatantly sexual and pandering (soft-core porn); the Superman image is not. I also said I wasn't arguing the main point being discussed.

What wasn't clear was that I was talking about the notion of abstraction itself as applied to discussions or critiques of how women are portrayed in media, which was the tangent I wandered off onto. The idea had been asserted that pretty much any abstracted image of a woman is a type of violence towards women, because it reduces them from being a complete entity to a mere body part, regardless of the sexual nature of the depiction. Usually it is overtly sexual but that wasn't necessary to the critique. So, yeah, I was getting into an academic issue which is related to the theme being discussed but not central to it.

So everyone agrees that the Miller image is porn masquerading as a comic book cover. I was just wondering if the posts that approved of the counter-examples for the wrong reasons ("ooh, baby" and "I'd buy that!")were meant to be ironic imitations of the male response to the Miller image or were sincere. Is the point that some of you want equal-opportunity porny comics or just that it has no actual purpose of any kind in an adventure-based medium?

[(Anonymous)]

Also, what did you think I was defending? Just asking.

[apricot-tree.livejournal.com]

Bwhahaha! That you this is both funny and informative. Please - no G'nort.

[ikkin.livejournal.com]

Oh my God. You're my hero.

I'm adding you, twice.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, I was wrong about what I was saying being tangential. I should have referred to the the actual text in the original post, which was this:

"Depicting [women] as an ass, a pair of tits, some gorgeous thighs is doing them a disservice. Distilling them into nothing but their sexual attributes is objectifying. And that's exactly what this cover does.

Random Fanboy:
And notice that Superman's chest is OFTEN a whole panel unto itself. Not Superman fighting the bad guy. Not Superman standing full figure. Superman's chest. Just his chest. His huge, massive, S-draped, extraterrestrially muscular chest. Is Superman being objectified? Is he being used? Should I cry for Superman?


So Maelithil made the same point I was asking. An abstracted image of a woman's parts distills her into nothing more than a nice butt or pair of boobs. Could you say that an isolated view of Superman's chest distills him into nothing more than a well-muscled chest? Could you state that in a general, gender-neutral way and still have it be a correct statement, as in "An image of a person's body parts distills that person into nothing more than that physical attribute"? I got hung up on the "distillation" part of the logic, not on whether or not both images were equally sexual in nature. I was asking if you could apply the "distillation process" theory to images of men, even if what they're being distilled into is not considered offensive in itself. Or if you'd even consider the question at all.

Again, I already agreed that the Wonder Woman image is pornographic, as are the Batbutt and Supercrotch shots, while the Superman chest shot is not. And I know what pornography is for, and why you may or may not want it in your comics, depending.

[odditycollector.livejournal.com]

The quick reply:
Could you say that an isolated view of Superman's chest distills him into nothing more than a well-muscled chest?
Nope. The intent is to focus on the iconic "S" symbol, which is without fail the purpose of those shots - and, indeed, why we get so many more Superman-chest shots than of most other heroes. (For the argument - Linda occasionally got similar treatment in PAD's Supergirl run, and the effect was the same. It didn't come off as "Boob shot! Woot!")

The question of whether you can distill Superman down into that symbol is a more complicated (and, IMO, very interesting) question, and there are essays and storylines out there dedicated to it.

Re: Oh WOW

[odditycollector.livejournal.com]

Hi! Go ahead with the icon, (and thanks for letting me know. Made me grin).

[odditycollector.livejournal.com]

*eyes the artist on that cover*

Aw, man. Turner. So much sympathy.

[odditycollector.livejournal.com]

Hee. I've never seen them, but I recall the recent, traumatized cries...

"BATMAN IS NOT GAY! ARGGHH!"

[apricot-tree.livejournal.com]

Speaking for myself - and only myself - I think it's too much to expect the sexualization of women to disappear completely from comics. It has been an integral part of the medium forever. However, the fact that it is only women and not men is kind of one sided. People wonder why women don't buy more comics. If everything I see ties into this, it makes me less interested in buying. If I want to look at breasts I have a mirror. Frankly, too many comics I see seem to mostly be about sexy pics of women.

I think it would be nice if people were more aware of what they were doing. I think a lot of it is just wallpaper. I also think that, if you're going to do it, it would be nice if there were "equal opportunity porn."

[apricot-tree.livejournal.com]

I just went to take a look at the FM cover. Wow - that's not just objectification, it's wretchedly drawn objectification.

[mizkit.livejournal.com]

I loved that Wolvie cover just because it was 100% no-holds-barred About Teh Fine Ass. :)

[little-bounce.livejournal.com]

I showed your covers to my non-comic-fan bf, who's response was "And you say we men are pigs!"

I had to make the point that yours weren't "real", and then go get a pile of comics (Turner, also Witchblade, Sin City, Aria) for him to get it.

*smacks head on table and decides next time to go for a girl, or at least a guy who grew up with a sister*

[(Anonymous)]

The reason that men are not drawn this way is obvious right in this thread - it's unwanted. The only people it could appeal to is gays.

Women are drawn this way because it's wanted. It appeals to the masses, both male and female. They are not being objectified, they are being idolized.

[(Anonymous)]

You don't have a 'strong point', you have no point at all. You are a hypocrite.

If 'objectification' is as bad and insulting as you say, why would almost every single female be consciously objectifying herself with her choise in clothes ? If it's bad, why do they do it to themselves ?

Like you do yourself, your jeans pants must be very snug on your ass. There is no doubt about that. This makes the whole thread pointless and cynical, since you actually use the thing you pretend to be upset about for personal benefit.

Every single actress, singer, whatever, use sex. Are they being objectified ? Poor objectified victims, with millions of american dollars in their bank accounts and a personal airplane.

Women use sex to succeed in life. Sex gives women power. It's a simple formula. Sex is used in comics and ads, because it's the strongest thing. It makes it sell. A comic that had superman's ass on the cover wouldn't sell.

Sex must be the strongest force in the world after money.
And women own it.

So what are you whining about ? That your gender is considered sexy and beautiful ?

[supacat.livejournal.com]

You win at life.

[(Anonymous)]

Wah. Insult.

[(Anonymous)]

This is funny in a thread about how focusing on a body part reduces a person to that body part. ._.

[onceupon.livejournal.com]

You know, I hear people all the time try to defend the covers and spreads that are nothing but softcore. This is absolutely where I'm going to point people when they don't understand why it's an issue, when they think that looking at women only in that way isn't a problem.

[puddingcat.livejournal.com]

(Here via the_xtina, who was here via someone else).

I love them. Green Lantern sent coke down my nose.

Unfortunately, when I've pointed this stuff out to male comic-reading friends (granted, they were 19 at the time), they grinned & said, "So? I don't care!". Effectively, they were getting what they wanted, so why should they care if female readers were being short-changed and objectified?

No; none of them did have a girlfriend...